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Posted on Aug 20, 2007 in blog, bloggers, Guest author by Wes Kenney 65 Comments

Buy Norvasc Over The Counter, You have probably seen Ron P.'s comments on various blogs. Ron P. attended Criswell College from 1986-1988. He currently works in the IT industry, but has served as an interim pastor, two youth pastorates, and other ministry positions. He is a homeschool father of three sons (of which the second is starting college) and has been married to his wife for over 21 years. Today, he offers the following as a guest author here at Reason for the Hope:

For the past several months, I have been trying to understand the current reform movement by some SBC bloggers, buy Norvasc Over The Counter. In jest, I have come to call this movement The Irenic Reformation, 150mg Norvasc. I became aware of the Baptist blogs with repeated references to bloggers as source material in the religion section of one of our local newspapers. I just assumed it was the online chatter that traditionally was done in person at associational meetings and state and national conventions (not that gossip in person is any better than gossip by blog). I should have been aware of the movement, but I confess, like many, I was inattentive. Buy Norvasc Over The Counter, I realize not all those within this crusade hold to all of the beliefs and practices that are prevalent in this movement. I do not wish to paint all with a broad brush, but it is not easy to ignore what has taken place in the "Baptist blogs", 50mg Norvasc, unless, like me, you have not read them.

Part of the problem I have encountered in this endeavor, is the apparent change in the definition of words. In the computer software industry, this same practice with software standards is called "embrace and extend", which one particular software monopoly is infamous for. An existing universal standard is taken (embraced) and then subtle undocumented changes to the standard are made (extended). The changes are pushed out, and by default, the change is now the standard, which is now owned by the one making the change, buy Norvasc Over The Counter. This very same thing is being done with the definitions of words by these so called reformers, Norvasc ebay. History is replete with examples of words that once meant something to only be morphed into something analogous and sometimes disparate. A recent example is the word evangelical. It no longer carries the purpose and intent that it once did, as evidenced by the belief that one in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church can still serve as President of the Evangelical Theological Society. Buy Norvasc Over The Counter, Another example is the word gay no longer really means merry, but something quite different in our culture. I believe that several words are being co-opted in this movement, such as conservative and inerrant. I find it ironic that some of the reformers have to endlessly remind us that they are conservative, just like moderates kept reminding us that they were conservative and inerrantists during the Conservative Resurgence (CR). 10mg Norvasc, However, just as it was during the CR, their words and actions betray them. The use of the word irenic has especially been "embraced and extended" in this movement. In essence, Post Modernism is thoroughly embraced, buy Norvasc Over The Counter. Definitions of words are changed, so that they can "embrace and extend" their version of the truth. You can even call yourself conservative and inerrantist if you want to. For the purpose of this analysis, I am not referring to the definition in the dictionary, as someone wanting to promote peace or reconciliation, 750mg Norvasc, but to those within this movement, that quite frankly, are promoting neither.

Being irenic apparently necessitates the acceptance of those that do believe and practice what is being published (and commented by those that are a part of the irenic) on the blogs. Buy Norvasc Over The Counter, These bloggers have chosen, again I state emphatically, CHOSEN, to make their blogs and comments the public persona of this Irenic Reformation. I amassed this incomplete list of beliefs and practices, with website links for you, the reader, to reference. Norvasc overseas, I apologize for the length, as what originally was only 894 words proliferated to this current document. Yet there is so much more out there. The more I researched and read, the more appalled I became. When reading the linked sites, please also read the comments posted by the irenic ones addressed to those that dare disagree or question them, buy Norvasc Over The Counter. Many times the comments by the irenic ones are much more atrocious than the blog entry itself. Some of the links below are from conservative bloggers that point out the fallacies of their logic (and theology). The number of links that could have been posted is too exhaustive for this work. Since I am relatively new to these blogs, I freely admit that there are probably better links available than what I have provided, 1000mg Norvasc. Buy Norvasc Over The Counter, Without further adieu, here are some of the beliefs and actions of the Irenic Reformers on full public display:

• 
  
  
  
  • Public vitriolic ad hominem attacks are common place and encouraged. These same attacks against fellow trustees are even more laudable. The highest esteem goes to any attack upon Paige Patterson. See here, here, here, here, here, and here.
  
  
  • You get to call anyone who disagrees with you: gnostic, Norvasc coupon, fundamentalist, legalist, or Landmarker. See here, here, here, here, here, here and here.
  
  
  • Privately praying ecstatic utterances (but not speaking in tongues) is the new Baptist, non charismatic practice that can not be questioned without being accused of being a cessationist or someone who wants to redefine what a Baptist is, 100mg Norvasc. A very flawed (scientifically speaking) survey is used to prop their belief that 50% of SBC pastors believe in PPL, buy Norvasc Over The Counter. Don't laugh, they are serious. See here, here, and here. Oh, other new spiritual gifts are to follow: here.
  
  
  • The death penalty is morally reprehensible for civilized Christians. See here.
  
  
  • Gun control needs to be embraced. See here.
  
  
  • Buy Norvasc Over The Counter, Drinking is a great evangelism tool. 40mg Norvasc, See here.
  
  
  • Ecumenicism is the new inerrancy. See here, and here.
  
  
  • It is no one's business if an SBC church supports the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. The church should still be allowed full fellowship with other SBC churches. See here.
  
  
  • Baptism - what does it matter. Duh, we are Baptists, buy Norvasc Over The Counter. See here, here, and here.
  
  
  • The pot calling the kettle black winner award: (SBC Blogger Bile): here.
  
  
  • Lawsuits and complaints against believers and our institutions, over clearly religious issues, are encouraged and supported, Norvasc craiglist, violating both Scripture and the U.S. Constitution. See here, and here.
  
  
  • Double entendres that are of a sexual nature attacking women of the non-irenic persuasion is well within the accepted (and defended) behavior of some. See the comment section here.
  
  
  • Publicly revealing confidential information about a pastor being called to another church, before the church is first informed, is considered an acceptable practice. Except when it is one of the irenic Buy Norvasc Over The Counter, ones, who happens to be a contributor to said blog. I believe they were correct to NOT leak his move, Norvasc australia, just hypocritical. It is to their shame that they do not give the same courtesy and honor to a fellow pastor. See here, here, here, here, and here.
  
  
  • A Baptist Blog that touts itself as the premier information for Baptist news and information believes that religious concerns should not override their "news" decisions. I thought the Word of God trumped all. Mind you, these are actually pastors making such comments, buy Norvasc Over The Counter. See here and here.
  
  
  • You get to call your blog a bridge and a place of diverse opinions. However, Norvasc paypal, only the irenic opinions are valued. If you don't like what you read you are told "don't read it". How's that for valuing diverse opinions within the SBC. See here Buy Norvasc Over The Counter, , here, here and here.
  
  
  • You can take a "clearly vague" statement that passed at the convention, and then get to claim it says something it does not say. In the same vein, when you incontrovertibly lose an important vote you were pushing, you just listen to the "Sounds of Silence" and ignore the loss and declare that it means nothing. See here, here, Norvasc canada, here, here, here, here, and here.
  
  
  • The Baptist Faith and Message is seen as full of tertiary doctrines. Even though we as Southern Baptist clearly have stated that these doctrines are "precious and essential to the Baptist tradition of faith and practice." See here, here, here, and here.
  
  
  • The irenic leaders want the Baptist Faith and Message to be both a minimal doctrinal guide and a maximal guide. The twisted loops of logic that you have to go through to be able to hold to both of these opposite positions (at the same time), 250mg Norvasc, is enough to cause the most avid roller coaster enthusiast to say "no mas, no mas". See here, here, and here.
  
  
  • Irenic leaders want to be able to allow those serving an SBC institution to affirm the Baptist Faith and Message with caveats (or be able to affirm any of our historic confessions), buy Norvasc Over The Counter. How is that affirmation to something that the SBC holds essential to our doctrinal unity. See here and here.
  
  
  • You can call yourself and others irenic, but only if they agree with the irenic. What is really priceless: Always being one of the irenic no matter how mean spirited and acrimonious you are. See here, here, Norvasc mexico, here, and here.
  
  
  • If you are an irenic one, your comments are logical, thoughtful and scholarly. If you are not one of the irenic Buy Norvasc Over The Counter, , you are just one of the minions of the evil one, blissfully ignorant of your blind stupidity. See here, here, and here.
  
  
  • Our missionaries, though financially sponsored and supported by our convention, should only answer to the Lord, which in reality is a push to be accountable to no one, 200mg Norvasc. They should not be required to affirm and teach the beliefs that uniquely make one a Southern Baptist Christian. Who are we to tell our missionaries what to teach and preach. See here, and here.
  
  
  • A woman's place is NOT in the home and there should be no support of such biblical archaic beliefs by our institutions of higher learning. Good grief, it's the 21st Century already, buy Norvasc Over The Counter. See here, here, here, here, Norvasc japan, here, here, and here.
  
  
  • Christian men should not stand up and sacrifice their lives in defense of others, and most especially should not be encouraged to do so by evil men who love guns. It's everyone for him self. See here.
  
  
  • Mohamed, the Qur'an, Mosque, Muslim prayers and Muslim beliefs about their god, can be continued to be held by "completed Muslim Christians", 500mg Norvasc. They can also forsake the assembly of believers. Buy Norvasc Over The Counter, Those teaching this false gospel can serve as SBC missionaries. See here, here, here, here, and here.
  
  
  • Paige Patterson MUST be brought down. No matter what the cost, the sacrifice, Norvasc usa, the effort... Kind of reminds me of Moby Dick by Herman Melville: "I'll chase him round Good Hope, and round the Horn, and round the Norway Maelstrom, and round perdition's flames before I give him up!" Also from Moby Dick: "Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee. Sink all coffins and all hearses to one common pool. and since neither can be mine, let me then tow to pieces, while still chasing thee..." Read almost any posts/comments at: Baptist Blogger, click on the Paige Patterson link and read ANY of them, buy Norvasc Over The Counter. But see these too: here. Actually, read any of the irenic bloggers and note that Outpost is becoming a lead ship in their "whale hunt" of Dr, 30mg Norvasc. Patterson.
  
  
  • Anything that will help in the attacks on Paige Patterson is a legitimate high value target, including his wife, professors, his dog, or others that agree with him. See here, here, here, Norvasc uk, here, and here.
  
  
  • The ban on women Pastors is/will be something we need to repent of. Though not supported by one of the irenic Buy Norvasc Over The Counter, leaders for personal and cultural reasons, he can not biblically justify the prohibition of women pastors. Women teaching men is OK by him though. I for one do not get that logic. It does seem apparent that the movement will definitely support Woman Pastors. See here and here.
  
  
  • Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Bill Mercer, Bill Underwood, Norvasc india, Tony Campolo, Marian Wright Edelman and others have organized the National Baptist Covenant (NBC). The organizers alone should give Southern Baptists pause to carefully scrutinize this effort and their motives, buy Norvasc Over The Counter. Some of the irenic leaders have been invited to participate. See here, here, and here.
  
  
  • The NBC, though not officially inviting pro homosexual conventions, do have them serving on committees. 20mg Norvasc, But don't worry; they'll be at the table in a short time. See here.
  
  
  • If leaders of the NBC personally tell an irenic leader that they believe in salvation in Christ alone, oppose abortion, etc. Buy Norvasc Over The Counter, but yet publicly make contrary statements, those that point out the contradiction are denigrated or told that the personal assurance is enough and is to be believed. See here, here, and here.
  
  
  
  

Once you have immersed yourself in the blogs, certain conclusions are unavoidable:

• 
  
  
  
  • Several of the reformers are anything but irenic (in the dictionary sense of the word).
  
  
  • Undermining those in authority is considered acceptable and common place.
  
  
  • Gossip is not confined to the local church but is blogged to a lost and dying world.
  
  
  • Posting an emoticon (like ":)" or ":D") makes it OK to be acerbic and invidious while twisting the proverbial knife in the backs of the non-irenic.
  
  
  • It appears that animosity towards Dr. Paige Patterson and an aversion to anything for which he is associated is the propellant that fuels some of the irenic.
  
  
  • Attacks against a man's wife (Dr. Patterson) though reprehensible and repugnant, Norvasc us, seem to be done with such perverse delight by some of the irenic.
  
  
  • These "reformers" are quick to remove the speck in other's eyes, but do not see the log in their own eyes.
  
  
  
  

In light of beliefs and practices of the Irenic Reformers, we need to wake up our Baptist brothers and sisters in Christ and sound the clarion call to once again, stand up, get organized and fight for the convention to remain true to God's Word. This time it is not just the inerrancy of the Word of God that we must defend, but the sufficiency of it as well. We must also defend what we as Baptists have understood what it means to be a Baptist, buy Norvasc Over The Counter. Who would have thought that Baptists would have to defend biblical baptism within our own convention.

The Irenic Reformation appears to be nothing other than an attempt to undo the CR using technology (blogs and blackberry's) as a tool, but employing an age old tactic: the politics of personal destruction. If you can not win on the issues, attack any and all who stand in the way. Again, I do not want to paint all with a broad brush, as some who agree with the irenic have been most kind and Christ like in their comments and actions. Buy Norvasc Over The Counter, But some of those same sweet brothers and sisters stand by silently while repeated caustic attacks are made. Those that have been the most vociferous mistakenly believe that if they take down the leader of the CR, the whole resurgence will fall. How naïve of them. Despite their prating, the CR is not tied to any person, though we are most grateful to all who led the battle for the Bible. The CR is the belief in the inerrancy and sufficiency of the Holy Scripture to guide us in all matters, not the one who led it. I must humbly stand in opposition to a movement that would seek to strip Southern Baptists of their historic identity and do it in a manner that is more reminiscent of Absalom and Diotrephes than of Christ, the Apostles, and our Baptist forefathers. Those that have bled and burned for that heritage deserve so much more from us.

Wake up, Stand Firm, and be Vigilant.

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• 

  Paul Aug 22 2007 - 8:20 pm

  Robin,

  The point I’m trying to make is that Baptists have been a rather diverse bunch from day one. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church being told that if you have two Baptists in a room you’ll have three opinions. That is a testimony to our historic diversity as Baptists. That same diversity is expressed in the various Baptist confessions of faith. There is a world of difference on some points between the Philadelphia Confession and the BFM2000. Even the topics covered are different. The Philadelphia Confession has a statement on Christians and Magistrates while the BFM2K does not. The BFM2K has a statement on Education which the New Hampshire Confession does not. It is anachronistic to read a seven-year-old document and say that everything contained therein is historically Baptist. It just isn’t true, even if we have codified it in our statement of faith.

  Likewise, Baptists have always had a respect for minority views on issues that are not central to Baptist identity. Take for instance the Calvinism/Arminianism debate. Probably 90% of the early leaders of the SBC were strongly Calvinistic. Today LifeWay tells us that only about 10% of the SBC population is today. But we aren’t running all of the Calvinists off…well…some seem to be trying to do just that, but not on the grounds that it isn’t “historically Baptist.”

  The truth of the matter is that Baptists have had open communion adherents from the beginning, even if they were a minority, but we have not historically run all of them off or called them threats to our Baptist identity. Baptists have practiced a variety of forms of polity. The New Hampshire Confession doesn’t even speak to a particular form of polity, but no one was running off my home church in OKC which was constituted under the New Hampshire Confession as a threat to our historic Baptist identity.

  What I’m saying is that some of you are more narrowly defining what it means to be Baptist than Baptists have defined themselves for 400 years and it’s coming across as a crusade to purge the SBC of all those who are not like you. Is that what you want? Do you want all of the “Ecumenical” Baptists to leave? Do you want all of the open communionists to leave and be shut out of denominational leadership? And for what? So that you can presume to have a “pure” denomination? Even the Philadelphia Confession is humble enough to realize that even the best and purest of churches are still beset by a measure of error.

  Let’s not forget that this simply began as a call for our missions agencies to return to the policies they had lived with for decades. It continues because of their refusal to do so. We existed in cooperation and with a measure of harmony on all of those points for a long time. It is mystifying to some of us why all of a sudden it is no longer sufficient for our mutual cooperation. Please keep in mind that the IMB trustees finally admitted that there were no problems on the field that weren’t already being addressed. This was about theological changes they wanted to implement, and did.

  Reply

• 

  Robin Foster Aug 22 2007 - 8:52 pm

  Paul

  Let me say that my “beef” comment didn’t sound right the second time I read it. I hope you don’t take it negatively. I have appreciated the Christian tone you have expressed.

  I am not advocating that anyone run off. No doubt, we have been a diverse bunch, but the minority has not set the agenda.

  Baptists have always held to only those who have practiced credobaptism should participate in the Lord’s supper. While there may have been a few who advocated otherwise, if you look at the record, there has been a consistent majority witness to baptism being a prerequisite to membership and the Lord’s supper. Of course you and I have gone round and round on the whole Baptism and Membership thing before and we have agreed to disagree.

  I am not advocating getting rid of people, but the minority view should not overrule the majority or become the norm for all.

  Reply

• 

  Ron P. Aug 22 2007 - 11:08 pm

  Debbie,

  Thank you for your comments. Though we do not agree on some of these issues, I do appreciate the conversation.

  By no means do I wish to disparage you, but I must humbly point out that you have unwittingly affirmed my point on co-opting words.

  You state that:

  “irenic … does mean that we love despite these things, it does mean that we do not want to go up against the powers that be or some of the policies that go both beyond the BFM 2000 or scripture, but it in no way means that we won’t. Irenic means that we care about missionaries and missionary candidates who are being rejected over these policies that churches are being excluded for these policies and more.”

  Your statements are demonstrative of “embrace and extend”. Irenic means none of the definitions that you gave. My definition of irenic is not as you stated “go along to get along”. As stated in the article I see someone as irenic: “…wanting to promote peace or reconciliation”. For me, irenic is simply and only peaceful or reconciliatory. I am not the one pushing the irenic label on the “reformers”. This is a label they gave themselves.

  Lastly, you say that I am taking quotes out of context and ask if that is not bile for which I accuse SBC Outpost of. Respectfully, no. All I have done is search out the writings of the “reformers” and attempted to do it without attacking anyone. I have diligently tried to speak the truth without bile or malice.

  In the posted comments that have disagreed with the overall crux of this article, I have yet to see any substantive dispute of the evidence or conclusions presented. The conclusions may be despised, but they have not been discredited.

  I do hope that you have a very good week.

  Ron P.

  Reply

• 

  Paul Aug 23 2007 - 12:06 am

  Robin,

  See, we really can get along, can’t we?

  I don’t think anyone, least of all those who come from a minority position, are asking for their position to become “the norm.” Quite the opposite. We simply want to be granted our position as a valid position within the stream of historic Baptist thought and not be prevented from being missionaries or serving the convention in other ways. Wade Burleson has said that very thing so often that I’ve lost count. BTW, your linking baptism with eternal security is a minority position, I’ll bet, but that doesn’t mean I think you are threatening our Baptist identity (though I do think you are threatening a Biblical understanding of baptism).

  Reply

• 

  Robin Foster Aug 23 2007 - 8:32 am

  Paul

  Let me say something a little better than what I may have said in the past.

  I link baptism to our identity in Christ. We are united to Him, to His death and resurrection. Christ rose from the dead, “…never to die again; death is no longer master over Him.” Romans 6:9

  Sorry for being so unclear before.

  Reply

• 

  Debbie Kaufman Aug 23 2007 - 9:41 am

  “…wanting to promote peace or reconciliation”

  Ron: This is the correct definition, but that does not mean that we stand aside and agree with your view no matter how wrong it is. I am not saying that you are 100% wrong and I am 100% correct. I am saying that the definition you are giving it is different than the actual definition. I want to promote peace and reconciliation. In fact what Paul has commented on I agree with. I know, I have agree with Paul on all that he has said here, it’s just right on target IMO. What he has said to Robin is my desire, but I will speak out when exclusion is the goal. I cannot in all good conscience endorse that school of thought. That does not make me less irenic. In fact it is what makes me irenic.

  I am wondering why you list gun control among your list of things as a problem. I see no problem in this. Maybe I am reading you wrong. This is a sincere question.

  Reply

• 

  Chris Johnson Aug 23 2007 - 10:50 am

  Robin,….

  Interesting blog, …..I have watched this debate for almost 30 years now…..

  So who is the Body of Christ?

  1. Any whom God has given Jesus Christ
  2. Any whom believe, trust, and confess God the Father Almighty through the work of the Spirit.
  3. Any whom believe, trust, and confess the Gospel through the work of the Spirit
  4. Any whom believe, trust, and confess that Jesus Christ is God’s Son through the work of the Spirit.
  5. Any whom believe, trust, and confess that Jesus Christ died for the sins of His people through the work of the Spirit.
  6. Any whom believe, trust, and confess that Christ has risen from the dead for the justification of the elect through the work of the Spirit. (imputed righteousness)

  Or

  1. All of the above, and
  2. Only those obedient to baptism by immersion for membership into the body of Christ.

  Fortunately and biblically, you can’t have it both ways,…. yet the Body of Christ is baptized as Mark made clear “….. but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
  (Mark 1)

  I guess the real question might be…. Is the Church different than the Body of Christ?

  So far for me…..I have never found it difficult to baptize (immerse) members of Christ. It’s a great way to worship!

  -Chris

  Reply

• 

  Ron P. Aug 23 2007 - 11:47 am

  Debbie,

  The thrust of my article really was two fold. What do the “reformers” believe? What is their methodology to bring about said reform?

  During my research, I have come away with the impression that clear Baptist distinctiveness is at stake. I have come away with the conviction that this movement wants to widen the scope (aggrandize) what it means to be Baptist. It appears to be a movement towards ecumenism. Possibly, as an unintended consequence, but nonetheless it is where this reform is destined if not carefully checked and evaluated.

  The movement and dissent would have been better received if (so many of) the attacks were not so personal and clearly motivated by bitterness. Hence, one of the reasons I listed gun control as an issue, was to demonstrate that no matter what the issue, it really appears to be all about Dr. Patterson, whether it is attacking his wife, his dog, his professors, or his guns. As I said, I do not believe that to be the case for all though.

  The recalling of endorsements and having a third iteration of SBC Outpost, where many (including the editor) who were part of the dissent have left that blog, clearly show that the methods have had a very negative impact upon the credibility of the dissent.

  Again, I did not choose the word irenic to describe anyone. The rabid personal attacks (methodology) against people stand in contrast to someone being irenic. That is why I have come to the conclusion that this movement is anything but irenic. Paul and Barnabas in their disagreement about Mark, were not irenic. But they did not claim to be. The leaders of this movement are claiming to be irenic.

  Thank you for the dialog.

  Ron P.

  Reply

• 

  Colin Aug 23 2007 - 1:14 pm

  Paul,

  If you had questions about my research (or “research”) why didn’t you comment on my blog or contact me and ask? I have in your two comments become uneducated in statistics, biased, guilty of “low” research, and have created a post that “is not scientific, it is not scholarly, it is a perspective given by a blogging SWBTS student.”

  Very interesting tactic, Paul. Was this why the comment was removed that had the link to my blog on Alan’s post at the SBC Outpost?

  A few questions for you:

  What makes you think any research in the world is unbiased? One thing I learned FROM MY STATISTICS CLASSES (plural) in college is the bias of all research. The key is minimizing that bias.

  What made you think I was pointing out everything negative or derogatory written about those subjects? Further, though a post may have a single theme, it may have several subjects. So do you double them up? Do you tally three different subjects for one post? You could, Paul, but your overall results will not be that much different. Or I could have just gone with the themes of the post- but that is not what I was commenting on. I was commenting on the mentioning of certain subjects, not trying to discern the authorial intent, and for that my data was objective. My point: the SBC Outpost has an issue with mentioning Patterson and SWBTS. The readers can decide if it was negative or positive. I bet you can guess where Frank Page, Thom Rainer and Jerry Rankin may fall on that decision.

  I can redo the chart if you like, but the data shows that per the 52 posts written since the June inception of the Outpost, Patterson/SWBTS is included in 16 of them. I could have deleted the “Letter of Financial Accountability” category and beefed up the numbers for Patterson/SWBTS, which I didn’t do even though they (hmm mm) mention him. I invite you to do the statistics on all the negative-critical-derogatory posts versus the positive-edifying ones.

  On being a SWBTS student, is that suppose to disqualify me from some kind of credibility? You’re in the SBC. Do you want credibility for your research on the SBC? I do know one thing, being here I can see firsthand much of what is written about on the blogs about the school, staff and classes is either a blatant lie or severe ignorance. Maybe some will see that as a virtue instead of a vice.

  I you have any more questions about this student’s qualifications in statistics, I can send you some of the maps I create illustrating statistical data for, say, the status of global evangelization, or the amount of urban growth in northern Travis County by building permit and year, etc. Because if you would have asked, you would have known I own and operate a consulting company that does exactly that.

  Reply

• 

  Ron P. Aug 23 2007 - 1:39 pm

  Colin,

  I apologize if I got you pulled into this. I thought your graph perfectly illustrated that the SBC Outpost articles did have one resounding theme: Paige Patterson. It was precisely that point that I was trying to make.

  You gave a most excellent defense of your work.

  Blessings,

  Ron P.

  Reply

• 

  Paul Aug 23 2007 - 2:18 pm

  Colin,

  Ron P. gives a great example of why I wrote what I did. He (and others) attributes your graph to the theme of the posts, not subjects mentioned. As you have noted, you have choices to make in that regard and you’ve made them. I think the choices are obvious.

  I did not ask you questions because I didn’t have any questions for you. I did not say that your being a SWBTS student disqualifies you. I said that it may reveal a bias. My own opinion is that it does.

  Finally, perhaps you now know just a very tiny bit about what the LifeWay research department was probably feeling like back in June when the blogosphere that camps on your side of the block was raking them over the coals for their research. Everyone will want grace for you to go along with their hard-and-fast examination of LifeWay. I am suggesting that if they are not beyond critique, neither are you and perhaps you more so in this particular regard.

  Now, breathe deep and count backwards from ten to zero. It isn’t like I attacked your manhood and my own sense is that it was a tad bit more respectful than your reply (which seems rather ironic in light of your post today).

  Reply

• 

  Colin Aug 23 2007 - 2:59 pm

  Paul,

  I am afraid I do not understand where I was disrespectful. I addressed each point you mentioned, and was rather nice given your attempt to discredit my research based on guesses about me. It is a clever tactic to disarm my points with a stab at my perceived defensiveness, worry about “my manhood,” etc. I hope we can avoid that type of communication and address the points of your critique and my response.

  I am glad you understand my point on bias and choices. I would like an example of where an ‘answer’ I gave in my research is fatally flawed, as you suggested. I hope you do not miss the point that you can choose otherwise and still come up with the same results, as I invited you to do.

  I also think you missed Ron P.’s point. He states the overall resounding theme of SBC Outpost is anti-PP, not that every post of the Outpost has that as its theme. I hope you do not dismiss the three denominational figures’ agreement with Ron P. on the tenor, etc.

  Further, I have never attacked Lifeway, and do not have a side. Please tell me what you think my stance is on PPL, tongues, or the new baptism policy. I am interested to hear.

  Paul, I am not trying to out-man you or save face. I am tired of rhetoric and negative communication, as I indicated in my current post. So I am going to hold you to what you say. Please back up your remarks (see above bold). I enjoy critique, it’s the only way I can improve my skills. However, let’s make sure it’s critique and not denigration.

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  Debbie Kaufman Aug 23 2007 - 6:20 pm

  Ron: I will speak for myself here in answering your comment. I do want the Baptist Identity to widen, not past the BFM but certainly larger than I believe Robin, Bart, Dr. York, Dr. Herschel and others would have it. They have narrowed it down so far that I don’t think even they themselves could fit in. No one has answered what Baptist Identity is. For me however, it is scripture as the final authority.That entails alot. I do believe in immersion and the main fundamentals of the faith that the Bible is clear on such as Christ is the only way to heaven, virgin birth etc.

  During my research, I have come away with the impression that clear Baptist distinctiveness is at stake. I have come away with the conviction that this movement wants to widen the scope (aggrandize) what it means to be Baptist. It appears to be a movement towards ecumenism. Possibly, as an unintended consequence, but nonetheless it is where this reform is destined if not carefully checked and evaluated.

  The movement and dissent would have been better received if (so many of) the attacks were not so personal and clearly motivated by bitterness. Hence, one of the reasons I listed gun control as an issue, was to demonstrate that no matter what the issue, it really appears to be all about Dr. Patterson, whether it is attacking his wife, his dog, his professors, or his guns. As I said, I do not believe that to be the case for all though.

  This is going to be controversial but I am going to say it. There were no personal attacks in my opinion. Facts were brought out on wrong doing with documentation. Could some things have not been said? Sure. There was no false information brought out. It was fact. That seems to be alluded. The same attitude prevailed when it was brought out that Richard Land, Franklin Graham, Jerry Falwell met with Mitt Romney a Mormon who is running for President. They were supporting him. That is wrong. No a whimper from Wes, Bart, Robin or you. Les Puryear wrote on it. I bring this up because I can’t understand all the murmuring against SBCOutpost and I am sincere. But I believe in telling it like it is and maybe too much so. I don’t know.

  As for the pulling of endorsements? I am disappointed and believe that Jerry Rankin and Frank Page are wrong in writing what they wrote, but also respect their write to speak. It’s the first time I have ever disagreed with them on anything, but I thought asking for the endorsements was a mistake anyway. The posts on the Outpost were nothing compared to the comments. Emily Hunter was trashed. Literally in some of the comments. That’s just one example. Both views were wrong in the comments Both views. But I found those who would agree with you, Robin etc. especially harsh. Cruel even. I am not saying this to be tit for tat. It’s just the facts. Irenic people cannot go that far. We can go pretty far, but a line(at least for me) is drawn pretty quickly. I can’t cross that line. It is not in me to do. I’ll stand toe to toe with a harsh person, but I cannot get as harsh as some have been.

  Ron, Irenic is not passive. You are taking a definition which I believe does describe those who wish reform and taking it to a level that of your own making while fighting to the death yourself. Do you really think that we will not fight back to a large degree? Of course we will. When shot at, we don’t just stand there with a big grin and God loves you look on our face. Remember how this all began. Missionaries and some from my own church who I know personally, good men and women of God with a burning desire to do God’s call in their lives as missionaries were being rejected due to admitting to a private prayer language or having been baptized in a river by someone other than an ordained Southern Baptist minister. That is what began this desire in us to change things. Then my minister who stood against these policies privately with no response but lots of antagonism, was threatened to be ousted from his duties as trustee, behind closed doors, with no hearing and no recourse. That is not something that irenic people stand by and allow to happen without a battle of sorts. We would be utterly stupid to do that. So if you are saying go with the flow and just be quiet and let things stay as they are, letting too powerful people run others off just because they may disagree,then I will gladly drop the word irenic. No problem. I feel the word fits, but not by your definition. Look what happens to abused women or children when they are beat up and don’t fight back. It doesn’t stop the abuse, it spurs it to continue.

  I genuinely care about all the people in the SBC, but what you are proposing frankly hinders the gospel in my opinion. Look at the numbers. Church attendance down the past twenty years, Baptisms down. People leaving? Up. We are not the sixteen million that we claim. Far from it. At least ten million have left in the last twenty years and possibly more. That concerns me, but it also tells me a lot. I am sorry for the long comment but hope I have clarified things at least from my viewpoint.

  I would like to see us change things together for the glory of God and for the love of each other. My husband and I are polar opposites on almost everything, but I love him deeply and vice versa. We have been married for 23 years. I wouldn’t trade him for anything. We argue, we disagree, but in the end we always compromise because we love each other. Same principal should apply here. We should love Christ and each other along with other people so much that we are willing to sit down and talk this through. I would like to see what I experienced at the Holy Spirit conference permeate the SBC.

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  Paul Aug 23 2007 - 8:11 pm

  Colin,

  It seems clear we are talking past each other. You think I’m denigrating you when that is not my intention. I think you sound harsh and defensive and you say you are not. Perhaps we should simply agree that we disagree and move on.

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  Debbie Kaufman Aug 23 2007 - 10:32 pm

  For clarification, I do believe the CR should have happened. I was not a Southern Baptist then, but I read about it and I do believe there were liberal attempting to take over the Convention. That is not the case now however. It’s Conservatives disagreeing with Conservatives.

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